Discussion:
time synchronization program when offline?
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Jake M
2024-06-25 18:58:51 UTC
Permalink
I use 22.04 and need a free program that would provide time
synchronization when offline. I have a program that needs such
synchronization in order to function correctly, and I'm not always going
to have net access. Thanks in advance.
Mike Easter
2024-06-26 00:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jake M
I use 22.04 and need a free program that would provide time
synchronization when offline.  I have a program that needs such
synchronization in order to function correctly, and I'm not always going
to have net access.  Thanks in advance.
I think we need some more specifics here.

Let us go from the normal situation and then try to expand it to your
specific request.

The normal situation is that the computer has its own internal clock
chip, and conventionally sync/s itself w/ online NTP, whereas the
'normal' situation for devices such as phones get their time sync/s from
GPS + cell towers.

One would infer from your question that in your perception or analysis
of the quality of timekeeping by your device's clock chip, you want to
'enhance' its accuracy w/o online NTP, but you haven't stated what kind
of precision you want or why or 'how often'.
--
Mike Easter
Mike Easter
2024-06-26 00:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Easter
One would infer from your question that in your perception or analysis
of the quality of timekeeping by your device's clock chip, you want to
'enhance' its accuracy w/o online NTP, but you haven't stated what kind
of precision you want or why or 'how often'.
I'll add some precision info as I can find it.

The conventional clock chip has 'similar' tech to an average digital
watch, which might be a second per day off, possibly minutes over a
year, altho' my present cheap digital watch is a few seconds per half
year, when I correct it. I don't know the current inaccuracy of any of
my computers which use NTP.

Previously I had a so-called 'atomic clock' in the house, which sync/ed
itself off the radio signal from Fort Collins CO US each day, and
maintained time w/ a typical quartz crystal.

So, I'm back to my 'original' qx; what kind of precision do you
currently have and what kind of precision do you think you need?
--
Mike Easter
Mike Easter
2024-06-26 01:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Easter
I'll add some precision info as I can find it.
I found out about NIST's dialup ACTS. I still have analog modems around
here that can use my conventional home POTS, but that home POTS line
actually goes over internet, ie VoIP system.

I understand there are devices that can get the GPS time, but I think
they are pricey and may need some kind of antenna.

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-distribution/automated-computer-time-service-acts
--
Mike Easter
Paul
2024-06-26 01:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Easter
I use 22.04 and need a free program that would provide time synchronization when offline.  I have a program that needs such synchronization in order to function correctly, and I'm not always going to have net access.  Thanks in advance.
I think we need some more specifics here.
Let us go from the normal situation and then try to expand it to your specific request.
The normal situation is that the computer has its own internal clock chip, and conventionally sync/s itself w/ online NTP, whereas the 'normal' situation for devices such as phones get their time sync/s from GPS + cell towers.
One would infer from your question that in your perception or analysis of the quality of timekeeping by your device's clock chip, you want to 'enhance' its accuracy w/o online NTP, but you haven't stated what kind of precision you want or why or 'how often'.
Meinburg plus a GPS might work.

A GPS with a PPS (pulse per second) signal.

The tricky part, is getting the PPS signal to
come in, on a low latency interrupt.

If you refuse to wire up the PPS signal, and
use TX/RX/GND, then the synchronization is good
to "a fraction of a second". With the right hardware
for PPS, you could be good for 100usec or so. The
hardware could get you 100nsec, but it is difficult to
assign a jitter number for the interrupt handling.

https://www.adafruit.com/product/746 # pin header, VIN/TX/RX/GND to TTL level serial port
# (My attempt to modify a serial port card PCIe has been a flop...)

https://www.adafruit.com/product/4279 # USB interface, plug and play. PPS on Ring Indicator, needs
# a matching driver to make it work. This might help a purchaser
# avoid soldering iron work.

The GPS module can pick up a strong signal from only
two satellites, if you leave it in the house on
the window sill. They make an active antenna cable,
for extending the "reach" of the module, so more
satellites can be seen. This would require a hole
in the window (nope, not gonna do that :-) ).

I've had mine working, it's just I'm trying to
get to better than USB polling interval on
clock sync. USB2 polls every 125usec, which is
why the output is a bit sloppy. PCIe interrupts
(inband messages) have very low latency by comparison.

The module uses a 1GHz clock internally, so the
re-sampled edge of PPS should have a jitter of 1 nanosecond
or the like. This might be receive frequency divided by
two or so.

This is better than the 50 millisecond uncertainty of
NTP network sync.

The computer protocols, only need 1 second accuracy
for any sensitive network storage purposes. Any of the
schemes will do that for you (no PPS needed) -- the
rest of it is an ego trip :-) It's no fun having
a module with great potential, if you cannot get it
to deliver as intended.

Paul
rbowman
2024-06-26 01:32:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Easter
One would infer from your question that in your perception or analysis
of the quality of timekeeping by your device's clock chip, you want to
'enhance' its accuracy w/o online NTP, but you haven't stated what kind
of precision you want or why or 'how often'.
Years ago we had clients that used products like this:

https://www.masterclock.com/ntp-server-100-gps.html

Leitch was one player and the unit had a serial interface.. They weren't
cheap but with an air gapped system it was the only way to go.
Paul
2024-06-26 01:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Mike Easter
One would infer from your question that in your perception or analysis
of the quality of timekeeping by your device's clock chip, you want to
'enhance' its accuracy w/o online NTP, but you haven't stated what kind
of precision you want or why or 'how often'.
https://www.masterclock.com/ntp-server-100-gps.html
Leitch was one player and the unit had a serial interface.. They weren't
cheap but with an air gapped system it was the only way to go.
It starts with a good web site.

http://satsignal.eu/ntp/index.html

Paul
Mike Easter
2024-06-26 02:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
It starts with a good web site.
http://satsignal.eu/ntp/index.html
I think I like the no-solder RPi GPS one best.
--
Mike Easter
rbowman
2024-06-26 05:19:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Easter
Post by Paul
It starts with a good web site.
http://satsignal.eu/ntp/index.html
I think I like the no-solder RPi GPS one best.
https://coverclock.blogspot.com/2017/10/my-wwvb-radio-clock.html

That's the old school approach using a WWVB receiver. I don't know if it
would be any more reliable than GPS inside a structure. When I was
developing an AVL interface I could never get a lock with a USB hockey
puck type GPS receiver in my office.
Paul
2024-06-26 07:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Mike Easter
Post by Paul
It starts with a good web site.
http://satsignal.eu/ntp/index.html
I think I like the no-solder RPi GPS one best.
https://coverclock.blogspot.com/2017/10/my-wwvb-radio-clock.html
That's the old school approach using a WWVB receiver. I don't know if it
would be any more reliable than GPS inside a structure. When I was
developing an AVL interface I could never get a lock with a USB hockey
puck type GPS receiver in my office.
You don't necessarily have reception all day long.

https://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvbcoverage.htm

Both GPS and WWVB have their issues. It's an acquired taste.

Paul
Mike Easter
2024-06-26 15:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
You don't necessarily have reception all day long.
https://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvbcoverage.htm
My old 'atomic' clock, quartz + radio, typically sync/ed itself in early
morning hours when it could get that radio signal best; it was placed by
a window that it could see the sky between itself & CO US. It had a
little symbol on its display that indicated it had been sync/ed on a
daily basis, so if that symbol wasn't showing, the current time was
quartz time. That was an aid in clock placement.
--
Mike Easter
rbowman
2024-06-26 17:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
You don't necessarily have reception all day long.
https://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvbcoverage.htm
Both GPS and WWVB have their issues. It's an acquired taste.
Definitely. In fact WWVB lost their south antenna in a windstorm last
month. They are supposed to have it back on line this month. You can roll
the dice with one of the WWV/WWVH frequencies too.
Mike Easter
2024-06-26 17:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
In fact WWVB lost their south antenna in a windstorm last
month. They are supposed to have it back on line this month. You can roll
the dice with one of the WWV/WWVH frequencies too.
Long story here
https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-distribution/radio-station-wwvb

wp
Post by rbowman
In 2011, NIST estimated the number of radio clocks and wristwatches equipped with a WWVB receiver at over 50 million.
I wonder what that number is this decade. The funding is threatened.
--
Mike Easter
Mike Easter
2024-06-26 15:42:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Easter
I think I like the no-solder RPi GPS one best.
This post details how to create a stratum-1 NTP Server using a
Raspberry Pi utilizing GPS and PPS, and get time within 100
nanoseconds of real time, directly from the atomic clocks located in
the GPS satellites above your head. The best part about this guide is
that this will work with no internet.
Besides the PPS (serial), he also/alternatively does it via USB of less
precision.

https://blog.networkprofile.org/gps-backed-local-ntp-server/
GPS Raspberry Pi NTP Server
--
Mike Easter
Mike Easter
2024-06-26 15:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Easter
I think I like the no-solder RPi GPS one best.
It is hard to stop chasing this because it keeps getting better; if one
Millisecond accurate Chrony NTP with a USB GPS for $12 USD
https://austinsnerdythings.com/2021/09/29/millisecond-accurate-chrony-ntp-with-a-usb-gps-for-12-usd/?ref=blog.networkprofile.org

and vid ref + useful comments at the above.
--
Mike Easter
Grant Taylor
2024-06-27 04:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Easter
It is hard to stop chasing this because it keeps getting better; if one
Damn.
Post by Mike Easter
and vid ref + useful comments at the above.
I know what I'll be doing as time and funds permit in the next month.
--
Grant. . . .
Grant Taylor
2024-06-27 04:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Millisecond accurate Chrony NTP with a USB GPS for $12 USD
https://austinsnerdythings.com/2021/09/29/millisecond-accurate-chrony-ntp-with-a-usb-gps-for-12-usd/?ref=blog.networkprofile.org
There's a follow up post:

Link - Microsecond accurate NTP with a Raspberry Pi and PPS GPS -
Austin's Nerdy Things
-
https://austinsnerdythings.com/2021/04/19/microsecond-accurate-ntp-with-a-raspberry-pi-and-pps-gps/
--
Grant. . . .
Mike Easter
2024-06-27 15:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Yes, he actually did that one earlier. Apr/Sep.

I have an old Pi 3B+, but I don't have a special need for time like
that. I do like to read about time related things, particularly the
progress in atomic clocks. And old progress in clocks in general.

The OP has seemingly disappeared, so we don't know what situation he was
trying to solve.
--
Mike Easter
Mike Easter
2024-06-27 17:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Easter
It is hard to stop chasing this because it keeps getting better; if
one gets away from microseconds in favor of milliseconds and
Going in the other direction than economy, if one wants to spend some,
Post by Mike Easter
EG-30 introduces a new performance class to commercial timing
markets, offering 25 femtosecond stability (0.000000000000025 s) at
one second, and multiday, sub-nanosecond holdover
The 3U package is easily carried by a single user, fits standard
server racks, and offers simple set-up: plug it into a wall socket,
press start, and the clock is running in minutes.
If you have to ask how much it costs, you probably can't afford it :-)
(we often say about yachts and such).
Post by Mike Easter
Vector Atomic brings world’s first rackmount optical clock to market
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20231113157771/en/Vector-Atomic-brings-world%E2%80%99s-first-rackmount-optical-clock-to-market
--
Mike Easter
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